STARFORCE: For the love of god...

General Discussion about Trackmania Nations ESWC.

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by farcar » 12 Apr 2008 04:03

hpbifta wrote:Same reply here as in the TrackMania Talk thread.
No, the reply is different, but my opinion is the same.
My post in the other thread was in response a post that stated nobody should complain about Starforce drivers being installed in TMN because TMU will not contain the drivers.
The crux of my reply was that we still have the right to complain because TMN is still being distributed. There you go, now I've said the same thing twice. :lol:

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by oliverde8 » 12 Apr 2008 08:25

farcar wrote:
hpbifta wrote:Same reply here as in the TrackMania Talk thread.
No, the reply is different, but my opinion is the same.
My post in the other thread was in response a post that stated nobody should complain about Starforce drivers being installed in TMN because TMU will not contain the drivers.
The crux of my reply was that we still have the right to complain because TMN is still being distributed. There you go, now I've said the same thing twice. :lol:
TMUF and TMNF(the updated version) will not have starforce. So why still discussing NO STARFORCE AFTER THE 18 OF THE MONTH

TMU has starforce
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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by RavenZero » 12 Apr 2008 08:35

Kk, could someone lock it or we're gonna get involved on some anti-starforce movement again?
If you say NO you can`t play the game.
And just do it...

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by farcar » 12 Apr 2008 11:42

oliverde8 wrote:TMUF and TMNF(the updated version) will not have starforce. So why still discussing NO STARFORCE AFTER THE 18 OF THE MONTH
I'll say it again. Because TMN is still being distributed and installs Starforce without knowledge or consent.
RavenZeroKk wrote:could someone lock it or we're gonna get involved on some anti-starforce movement again?
That would just show that the mods don't want to confront the issues.

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by Slig » 12 Apr 2008 12:51

farcar wrote:It's unethical for Nadeo to install hidden drivers on it's customer's machines without telling them. There needs to be a notice during installation.
And what about all antivirus, firewall and hardware drivers ? did you see anyone with a notice about low level driver installed ?
farcar wrote:As a result of this, I will never purchase another Nadeo game (no matter how good they are) as they have completely lost my trust.
You say that just when the new Nadeo game will not have starforce at all. I suppose you don't expect them to change the previous game protection, do you ? so why whinning now ?

If you don't want then don't purchase, it's your choice, and also, please, start your new way of life by stopping posting here about starforce.

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by farcar » 12 Apr 2008 13:09

Slig wrote:And what about all antivirus, firewall and hardware drivers ?
Last time I checked, my anti-virus didn't install drivers without telling me. When I install hardware, I expect hardware drivers to be installed. When I install a game I have purchased, I don't expect hardware drivers to be installed secretly without asking and without being removed if I remove the game from my system. These are the common gripes many people have with Starforce which I'm sure you already know, so why make me repeat them. My question is why do Nadeo continue to distribute games that secretly install Starforce? Nobody has answered this yet.
Slig wrote:If you don't want then don't purchase, it's your choice, and also, please, start your new way of life by stopping posting here about starforce.
If you had read my posts, you would know that this is exactly my point. :roflol: So, I will repeat myself again.
I didn't know that Starforce would be installed, therefore I didn't get to choose. If I know, I would have never purchased or installed a Nadeo game.

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by Slig » 12 Apr 2008 13:58

farcar wrote:Last time I checked, my anti-virus didn't install drivers without telling me.
A standard application can't do what anti-virus or firewall are doing without a low level driver or library, or a service working with admin permissions, whatever you call it.

When you buy a game you know that there is more than probably a protection, and so that what is needed to make it work will be installed.

Also, many Microsoft programs are potentially more intrusive than starforce (Windows itself being the worse), so i juggest you to stop to,use any game, and stop using Windows...

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by hpbifta » 12 Apr 2008 14:54

Also after the 16th all newly available Nadeo games will not have StarForce and distribution by Nadeo (well Focus and partners actually) of TMN classic + TMU will stop in favour of TMNF and TMUF, so it is no longer an issue. So get off your high horse please and stop complaining.

I`m sorry but I do feel the anti-StarForce lobby has gone to far and in my personal opinion you are a fool and idiot for believing or at least accepting all the propaganda and hype this lobby has put out. We know you don`t like it you have explained your reasons enough and some of us even though we don`t really accept them (or at least we think you are being a bit silly and over-reacting) understand your point of view even though we may disagree with it. but you are entitled to your opinion. But if you really do feel this strongly about the issue why not write to a fair trade/games control authority and state your case there. Complaining about it on this forum is not going you any where. All you are going to get here is a very big argument which many people will think you are stupid for bringing up yet again.

sorry but thats the way I see things.

HP is now OUT of this conversation before I get wound up and have to say things I will regret.
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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by Zooz » 12 Apr 2008 23:07

farcar wrote: That would just show that the mods don't want to confront the issues.
Or that we're tired of nonexistant issues being beaten to death repeatedly, usually ending in flamewars.
hpbifta wrote: I`m sorry but I do feel the anti-StarForce lobby has gone to far and in my personal opinion you are a fool and idiot for believing or at least accepting all the propaganda and hype this lobby has put out. We know you don`t like it you have explained your reasons enough and some of us even though we don`t really accept them (or at least we think you are being a bit silly and over-reacting) understand your point of view even though we may disagree with it. but you are entitled to your opinion. But if you really do feel this strongly about the issue why not write to a fair trade/games control authority and state your case there. Complaining about it on this forum is not going you any where. All you are going to get here is a very big argument which many people will think you are stupid for bringing up yet again.
would be a good way to end the thread since everything has been said, but then the whole "omg the devs are censoring the truth" crap could start (even though the mods have nothing to do with Nadeo and just try to keep the forum running properly) so i'll leave it open i guess. The sane people can just ignore it, like they usually do after a while.

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by farcar » 13 Apr 2008 05:41

I just wanted to state that I'm not part of the 'anti-Starforce lobby'. I haven't spoken at all about my opinions of Starforce itself. That is not the point I am trying to make. I personally don't want it installed on my machine, but I understand that it doesn't bother some people and I have no problem with it's place in the market. Market forces should decide it's fate. I do expect that games will come with anti-piracy software and I don't really care if Nadeo choose to use Starforce.

My problem lies with the underhand ways I have seen it distributed by developers and publishers (in this case Nadeo), allowing it to be installed without notice. Nadeo know too well how controversial and unpopular Starforce is in many circles, and their decision to completely omit any information about in in their installers shows me that they are hiding it. This is, in my opinion, cunning and unethical.
All I wanted to know is why they made the decision to hide it, and why they continue to do so.

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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by hpbifta » 13 Apr 2008 19:15

ok, I have no idea why they chose to hide it, but from Wednesday it will not be distributed on their new software and you will NOT be able to get classic TMN from an official source, only TMNF so it is no longer an issue.

But then Nadeo arent the only company who have used things like StarForce and not told people that it is being installed. and I do think there is a chance that StarForce is probably mentioned on the game boxes or at least in the EULA.

Jeez FarCar, I somehow doubt you will ever get an answer to your gripe, but as you have been told on multiple occasions from Wednesday IT IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE!!!!

what do you expect just because you complain? Nadeo to suddenly turn around and release a patch for every TM game to date which uses StarForce which removes them, or to suddenly release new installers for out-dated games which will technically be obsolete in a few days with warnings just for you? Sorry but it is NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Nadeo have far better things to do at the moment which is finishing off and releasing TMF which solves your entire argument in one fell swoop.

So please please please for the love of god will you give up with this argument?

sorry to be rude but,....

Either shut up and just never have anything to do with any current or older version of TM in your life or wait till Wednesday and download TMNF or buy TMU and upgrade it or wait until a pre-upgraded StarForceless version of TMUF comes out and buy that, but please stop this pointless disscussion which is going no-where. If you really really want an answer why not ask Nadeo themselves? e-mail support@trackmania.com and see if they will pass you question onto the Nadeo team themselves, but somehow I doubt anybody will answer as I said from Wednesday it becomes a "moot" point.

Now stop being miserable about something no one really cares about anymore and please try and start to enjoy yourself. Get a happy girlfriend, go to a party, do something, because you are just making yourself look like the man who writes in to the editorial column of the Daily Mail to complain that kids are too disrespectful and a criminal hotbed these days because they said "Piss Off Grandad" when you told them off for climbing over your 3 foot high garden wall to retrieve their football. You must have a higher opinion of yourself than to become that man.

HP is now out of this discussion once and for all on this subject, as this is no longer worth discussing in any way. :grmblz:
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Re: STARFORCE: For the love of god...

Post by farcar » 14 Apr 2008 09:15

hpbifta wrote:...Nadeo arent the only company who have used things like StarForce and not told people that it is being installed. and I do think there is a chance that StarForce is probably mentioned on the game boxes or at least in the EULA.
I know that Nadeo are not alone. Ubisoft and Atari among others have been just as bad in secretly installing Starforce with their games. At least Ubisoft have seen the light. Anyway, that's beside the point and to me, is a poor defense to your point of view. If Nadeo put a Starfoce logo on their packaging, that would be a small step. But it should also be in the installer, and you are only speculating.
hpbifta wrote:what do you expect just because you complain? Nadeo to suddenly turn around and release a patch for every TM game to date which uses StarForce which removes them, or to suddenly release new installers for out-dated games which will technically be obsolete in a few days with warnings just for you?
In my opinion, it would be great if they updated the installers, but as you say the game will be superseded soon, so just an answer would do. The Devs posted earlier on this thread (although didn't address the issues and concerns of the OP), so perhaps I will get an answer. Wait and see I suppose.

I won't respond to the rest of your post, as you resorted to personal comment when you quite obviously don't know anything me at all.

I'll end this post by saying that while I strongly disagree with how Nadeo have handled Starforce, I really only posted here because I care and I want change. I have always been a huge supporter of smaller and independent games development teams, and I know that Nadeo make great games. I really enjoyed the Trackmania series and I also purchased Virtual Skipper 2 which I thoroughly enjoyed. That's why I'm so disappointed not only that they chose Starforce to protect their games, but that despite widespread concerns about Starforce (which they are totally aware of), they still choose to completely omit/hide it's presence from their customers. It's just really disappointing.

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