So *sad*

General Discussion about Trackmania Nations ESWC.

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Koroner
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So *sad*

Post by Koroner » 10 Mar 2006 16:24

I've just seen some that has really really disappointed me.
I was online, on TMN, looking for a server with nice tracks and high-ranked people where I could earn some good points.

Then I found it... a 128-players belgian server - many of whom ranked under 1000 - which consisted of BEGINNER TRACKS ONLY.

Now... I've nothing against those "metropolitan server" set up explicitly to make points, but I really couldn't stand this one: ONLY BEGINNER TRACKS! For God sake, where's the racing act in them?!
And - above all - I had never seen such a thing: good players on beginner tracks? What was that all about?

Anyway I joined that server, because before making any complaint I wanted to be sure that one of my rank (1000 or so) could actually earn points in it. So I got in, raced the stupid track I was put in, and arrived third.

I earned 9 f*cking points.
Sometimes I got my fingers hurt in order to get such an amount of points in a pro server, while now - in this points-machine game (which is just like an intensive cattle farm) - I could get them with ease and in the meantime yawning because of the "track"...

After that race I istantly took my decision (to leave that nonsense), and typed:
"how can you have fun with such tracks? this server is just a pathetic points-machine"
Then almost immediately one answered (surely because many before me had typed similar comments and he had to defend that lovely server where he could make such easy points...): "why don't you leave then?"
And I replied: "of course I do, bye all"

Many players seemed to have fun with that 10-15 seconds long "races", they often say "GG" or such and this makes me think they've never known what TrackMania is. In that server I also found me thinking there may be some player never getting out such places, always racing beginner tracks only to get better and better ranks.

Nadeo, I've not yet made any complaint about the new ladder system, but if the fact no one can lose points produces such situations, I think I'm gonna play a lot less this game.

Because I used to like the ladder thing, with points ecc ecc. It added fun to the game. Competition, you know.
But what I've seen today is anything but fun and anything about a racing game. It's crap.

I know: it may appear that I'm a bit exaggerating but as a I said at start I am very disappointed...
My question is: is TrackMania this? And if yes, had it to become this?

Crusard

Post by Crusard » 10 Mar 2006 16:49

There's a lot of servers like that which make no honor to what Trackmania truly is. Sad, really, but I don't think there's much that can be done. Just play servers with cool, new, "hard" tracks like I do. GG.

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Post by Koroner » 10 Mar 2006 18:15

At the moment, it's even sadder for me, because I just found one of those servers within my own country (Italy).
Abruptly I've realized how "we" are able to stay at second place in the nations ladder, and that just makes me sick.

Now I'm aware that under my rank very few players are worth of their points. *TSK* :?

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Post by Rax » 10 Mar 2006 19:11

best thing would to be get that dedi server outta beta :) and only allow the latest version of the server report to the ladder

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Post by Moke » 10 Mar 2006 19:18

This could only be described as Stat-padding (anyone who plays BF2 will know what I mean)... anyway this "global" ladder will never give a true meaning of skills, since its based on "more time played = More points earned"... for the real deal you should join leagues... Here I would like to list a lot, but im Newbie at this game so ill just name name ESL and ClanBase..

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Post by Koroner » 10 Mar 2006 19:20

That would be nice.

But I think that ladder system itself how it's meant now by Nadeo is to be changed some way. I'd be glad to see new rules such as "you do not earn points if you are high-ranked (I mean you have a lot of points) and however you're racing in a track which is shorter than 20 seconds or made of two bends only"

I know, that was silly... :)
But some other mechamism which involves tracks should be inserted, IMHO, to force strong people (are they really strong if the've been playing noobish tracks only?) to race on other harder tracks.

In fact a 128-players server with advanced tracks is completely different matter than the beginner ones we're speaking of. (even thought there's a newbie two-bends track in adv too, I don't remember its code now)

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Post by Rax » 10 Mar 2006 19:25

who cares about the ladder anyway. At least i know how this person on the uk ladder came out of nowhere in a day. didnt see him on the first couple pages then bam right up to 5th. ah well.

reset the ladder :P

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Post by Koroner » 10 Mar 2006 19:40

reset the ladder
Yes, this is the best idea ever and it sounds tremendously right.

Hmm... I wish there were competitions and less points; I think the game would improve a lot without a "ladder".

What about national monthly leagues: national, continental and world.
Like soccer, just with many prizes given to make many players happy. And all recorded, of course.

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Post by Rax » 10 Mar 2006 20:05

I played in there for 5 mins, i saw 2 - 3 pages of people with the same time, how fun. that aside:
theres ladders like esl clanbase and the Electronic Tournaments leagues which are rather good. just ignore the ingame and enjoy it

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Post by Florent » 10 Mar 2006 21:35

on a server with so many people, you say that being third place brings you a lot of points, but, how many people are third place on this server. The best is still to be on 10 to 20 people servers with people of your real skill.

its possible that
1. we reduce the number of players on servers by reducing the number of official to 50.
2. we create something to give more ladder points on server with official maps and with round mode

not sure

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Post by Rascal » 10 Mar 2006 22:30

tbh, i doubt that there is any way to prevent such things. Whatever you do, there will be a way around it as long as everyone can make servers (and i think that it is a good thing that everyone can have his server the way he likes it). Sure, earning points like that doesn't make the ladder very accurate in judging the skill of the individual player, but consider the following:

1) If you are ranked high, you can only get points on tracks that are difficult (ie. contain more than a few simple bends)
Bypass: create tracks that contain a lot of difficult elements that don't exactly belong to the track. You drive the "shortcut" and the track does look difficult since there are all the fancy blocks in it

2) if you are high ranked, you only get points on long tracks
Bypass: create long tracks that are simple

3) limit the amount of players on official servers to 50.
Bypass: you don't even need a bypass. You can earn lots of points on a 50 player server anway.

4) give more points on special tracks (ie official ones or roundbased as florent has suggested)
Bypass: make a server that has only 1 map. Everyone can train that track in 1 hour and you could as well just have beginner tracks.

5) Make people loose points if they get beaten by lower ranked players
Bypass/Spoil: Create new profiles and beat some mid-/highranked players just for the fun of it. Just play normaly. nothing really changes as long as the servers remain the same
Sideffect: smaller less popular servers will die out rather quickly since there will not be enough good players on them -> if you are good, you can only loose points -> good players don't play there -> bad players don't play there as there are no good players to gain points from.

The list with possible solutions and countermeasures goes on and on. Simple learn to live with the fact that you can't have "uncontrolled" laddersystems that actually work.

Back in the days of quake2, there were several such ladder systems available (independant ones) and some of those were rather sofisticated. They included rating of whome you killed and who killed you, how accurate you were and so on. I still managed to have 3 of my nicknames on the first 3 positions while i wasn't the best player by far. As has been mentioned before, the only "good" ladders are those that actually are controlled such as the ones ClanBase and ESL offer. But even there you will find a lot of people exploiting whatever they can in order to get more points.

As I understand it, the ladder was meant for fun and there was never an intention of providing real means of measuring skill levels. Such simple isn't possible and worrying about "noob" players who are ranked in the top 1000 doesn't get you anywhere. There are always people trying to do whatever they can in order to get whatever "virtual" and "real" awards there are and they are not shy of using any means to achieve this goal, no matter how "lame" or "illegal" you might think they are.

The best you can get is the good feeling that you can always beat those pseudo highranked players any given time. If you want to beat them on the playing field you will have to play their game and that does contain joining those servers.

As a sidenote: Driving over the grass where it wasn't supposed (sometimes having to rely on luck in order to actually get a good time) can be considered cheating too, as it is pretty obvious that some of the shortcuts aren't intentional.

This is a more pragmatic view on the topic:
The fastes one beating most players (preferably those who are ranked higher than yourself) wins the game. There is no mention of how to achieve this goal hence everything that doesn't require artificial help (bots, faked data and so on) is legal. If you refuse to play on those point-machines it is simple a restriction that you are placing upon yourself due to some ethics you are following. No other player is bound to follow the same ethics though.

Don't get me wrong, I does upset me as well when I see that some players are just out there earning points "the easy way". But I've long ago learned to live with the fact that this is the simple reality of online gaming, no matter what kind of game you are playing.

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Post by TrabTowN » 11 Mar 2006 03:00

Nice statement Rascal ... :wink:
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Post by Koroner » 11 Mar 2006 08:00

Florent:
The best is still to be on 10 to 20 people servers with people of your real skill.
You are right Florent, but you miss the point... have you ever found one of such servers? I am disposed to drive even some tricky 3 minutes long track if I encounter a server with 20-30 people of my rank.
But you know where such people actually are nested, don't you? :?

Rascal:
If you refuse to play on those point-machines it is simple a restriction that you are placing upon yourself due to some ethics you are following. No other player is bound to follow the same ethics though.
Hey Rascal, that's obviously right and I think it was implicit. Mine of first post was a complaint, just that. I'm not the guy who tries to oblige others to do what he/she thinks is morally or legally correct. No criticism by me was meant that way.
Yes... I find no fun in playing the same two-bends track over and over again till the end of my days, but on the other side I can understand - with what we may call a tremendous empaty act - that someone there may be out there.

Anyway, it's objective that since the ladder should somehow represent the strength of people and since such beginner servers can produce 500 or 600 ranked players which actually are noober than same noobs, there's something which simply doesn't work. Don't you agree?

You make good points on your list of the above reply, and I think that Florent and others at Nadeo have thought about each of them many times so far.
I know that Florent may disagree because of other problems involved, but... many Nations players miss the Sunrise ladder system, where one could fairly lose points if overtaken by players weaker than him/her. My initial euphory for the choice of implementing forced official mode and for removing the losing effect has gradually morphed into confusion because I've never been able to stand the 4-5 hours players who have ranks higher than mine just because they can (and want...) play 4-5 hours a day. And now what I feel is frustration, having I just become aware of those farming servers.

It's still too sad to meet people with high ranks who drive a difficult track at the skill level of real noobs. I'm gonna make 'em notice that everytime I come across one.

-- EDIT --
Rascal:
But I've long ago learned to live with the fact that this is the simple reality of online gaming, no matter what kind of game you are playing.
Too bad, I perfectly know what you mean here...
But I'm one of those who think that a solution there always is. For every online vg.

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Post by Toto » 11 Mar 2006 14:01

From a logical point of view, it makes no sense for experimented players to play on easy tracks.
You win as many points wether the tracks are hard or not, but playing hard tracks instead of easy ones would give an advantage to the good players.
Also, good players don't win any points from beating bad players, so it's their interest to have servers at their level(i.e with hard, competition level tracks).
My question is: is TrackMania this? And if yes, had it to become this?
You can't summarize TM to the ladder or to a specific server. It's up to everyone to decide wether they're ready to sacrifice their enjoyment of the game just to win points faster. In the end I doubt that a player who spends a lot of time on beginner tracks could beat a player who races on many different tracks...

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Post by -Lr-SadHik » 11 Mar 2006 15:11

i think the problem is the same with these boring "expert track only server"... :oops:

i think ladder can't represent the real level if no one lose points...
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