Cup Mode logics

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nespokojny
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by nespokojny » 12 Feb 2009 14:18

it might be interesting (better?) if elimination phase starts after all maps were played (3 maps ... 5 may also work)
points are counted together from all maps like in Cup mode (no finalists) <-- this would need to reconsider to maintain catch-up idea somehow

example (4 players)
-map A played (4 players)
-map B played (4 players)
-map C played (4 players) -> last player -> 4th place
-map B(D) played (3 players) -> last player -> 3rd place
-map A(E) played (2 players) -> last player -> 2nd place
Yay! we have winner!! :3


but again it's quite far from cup mode idea and it's very much the same as current system (unless some additional ideas are implemented)
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Dff|Shadow » 12 Feb 2009 14:41

nespokojny wrote:it might be interesting (better?) if elimination phase starts after all maps were played
That's what I mean when I said "three stages, each one is a three 3laps maps". Look:

- maps A, B, C played (4 players) -> last player -> 4th place
- maps A, B, C played (3 players) -> last player -> 3rd place
- maps A, B, C played (2 players) -> last player -> 2nd place

Then the map order is unimportant, time of playing always will be more or less the same and we will get to know the winner at the end.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by rapt » 12 Feb 2009 15:10

go 5 round per maps and play all 5 maps in random order It's the most easy to understand for all and it's the favorite thing to majority of players !!!
Stop speaking and speaking, it is good I think that everybody understood that mode cup is not fair and that it is necessary to change it, but stop to take out from more harebrained ideas one than others :D

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by donzeze » 12 Feb 2009 18:23

Whao !! I have just spent 2 hours reading every post of this forum because as the ESWC Trackmania admin since the first year (2006) I really feel concerned about this.

Sylvain, Nadeo and I have always been trying to make things the best for players AND for spectators since 2006. It's not an easy thing to get everyone agreeing with news rules or changes...

And there as been many changes in TM ESWC since then, new game(forever) , new mode(cup), new type of match(1vs1vs1vs1). In every case we always had players and spectators agreeing and not agreeing. It's fact , it's just human to have different opinon about things in everyday's life.

Now I don't think that changing game mode in the middle of the season if the best solution. I've also been a player in 2006 and 2007 so I know what is training and spending time on getting better. I also very well know what is loosing and being well behing top players ^^ ( that is probably with I'm an admin today..easier to go bercy this way :D )

In my opinon, there are some very good things in this cup mode but I agree that the "finalist" status can in some case disadvantage a player. That is why I have being thinking a few days about a solution to finish this season without too many changes. Because Slig and I simply don't have time making a new program to manage tournaments with news rules in the middle of a season. But we can improve it.

I find the F,6,4,3 - F,F,4,3 thing really good. But I also wanted to add an option that would give the choice to the player who becomes finalist to choose to finish on the same map or to carry on as cup mode should be. That is to prevent from becomming finalist just before a map change and loosing because a player isn't as good on the other one.

Whatever solutions will be chosen in ESWC or other competitions there will always be some guys laming...that's the rules ! If you disaprove rules in a tournament , then just don't participate and play on a another one :p

Sincerely I hope to be able to satisfy as many players and spectators as possible.
I would like to thank the ESWC team , Nadeo and Slig for all their help in getting TM being a great game at ESWC.(We nearly make more noise then CS spectator at bercy ^^)
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 12 Feb 2009 19:58

Yes since you say you can't really make any big differences for this season, I agree that the best solution is to use the F 6 4 3 system, but I also suggest that you raise the point limit to say 150p because right now the matches are really short and you basically only get 1-2 chances after you've become finalist, since usually all 4 players are very equal. Also i find the idea that you can choose to finish on the map you became finalist on as something good.

But for next season I think you need to come up with a new system. Shura's for example, or just keep it simple with 5 rounds on each map, without any finalist whatsoever. This whole Finalist idea is quite complicated. What we had worked just fine, and would work even better with some tweaks. Anyway that will still live on in other tournaments.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 12 Feb 2009 21:18

Dff|Shadow wrote:
Florent wrote:The leader mode with three laps map
A player needs to win 3 maps to win. To win a map, a racer need to win the race.
Mhm, really nice solution, but still the best player must wait for the rest.
If you want a podium, I really think you need to finish the race. You can stop the competition and look at all the results (and by the way increase the number of races) but then, it would still be a championship.
Dff|Shadow wrote: - 3 maps in mappack
- three stages, each one is a three 3laps maps
- from the 1st stage the worst player come away - he's 4th
- this same in 2nd stage - the worst player is finally the 3rd
- in 3rd stage 2 best players are again playing three 3laps maps (bo3),
- time of playing: 9x3laps=nearly 30 mins
- the best one don't have to wait for the rest
- bigger and bigger level of adrenaline

What do you think about that?
Sorry for my english.
I think you rely here on a championship style addition of points to know who's 4th. I am trying to avoid this type of scoring because the 10-6-4-3 is already something bias for the same reason that they wanted to include 4 players in the race... because, too often, the 3rd and 4th place are not significant in the race.

But let's integrate your idea in another fashion (strange one, but logical):
In each race, the last man gets one point. When he reaches 3 points, he leaves the race. etc.

I like this result for the logic of it. Let's name it the Survival Mode ^_^

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by w1lla » 12 Feb 2009 21:19

Florent wrote: But let's integrate your idea in another fashion (strange one, but logical):
In each race, the last man gets one point. When he reaches 3 points, he leaves the race. etc.

I like this result for the logic of it. Let's name it the Survival Mode ^_^

Well why didnt Nadeo came up with Survival mode in exchange for cup mode....

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by donzeze » 12 Feb 2009 22:11

I love this idear of survival mode ^^
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Sulli » 12 Feb 2009 22:17

You're talking about facilities for spectators, but your ideas are more and more harder to understand...

It's easier to drive 5 rounds on 5 maps and count points seriously, and the best player deserve his victory...

I don't want to give arguments btw, Florent will have the last word as usual...

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 12 Feb 2009 22:28

like I already said Sulli, there is a difference between asking player to add the score on each round and learning the rules once and for all
many people are really not at ease with adding 91 + 6 89 + 10 92 + 4 and 87 + 3 to know what is happening in the round

W1lla, because we are not perfect maybe?

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Sulli » 12 Feb 2009 22:43

Hmm for specs it's a little weird with some systems proposed.

I'm sure a spec won't understand why a player win with your system, I'm not saying it's bad, but just hard to understand.
For the F 6 4 3, specs will have some difficulties to understand why the first isn't getting 10 points anymore.
For the monomap, I think it's a bad thing, players will be bored by training on only 1 map. And a match could be boring too for specs.

I'd like veto's system for the maps, i'm off-topic but this thing could give some strategy, you can veto the best map of your best opponent, it seems cool.

Specs were pretty interested by old systems, after seeing a match, you understood well the rules. Now the "finalist" give some confusion.

Btw if I have to support a system for the moment, after the 5 rounds on 5 maps, I like Shura's.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by rapt » 12 Feb 2009 23:33

What is so hard to understand lol ?
like I already said Sulli, there is a difference between asking player to add the score on each round and learning the rules once and for all
many people are really not at ease with adding 91 + 6 89 + 10 92 + 4 and 87 + 3 to know what is happening in the round
EEEEEEEEEEUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
You have just to wait the next round and you read score on the screen (donzeze system ^^)! it's so hard !!!!!!

If your problem it's to all people understand : At the end of the last run you create a little program to calcul all points of any players and on the screen you put the first with his points , under you have the second with his points ... it's allready in the game i think.
At the end of any round you put on the screen the score during 5 sec ? and with system you have the score on left of the screen so it's very easy to follow the match.

I just want to say : if we play 5 round per map and 5 maps you don't have to create another mode or program , we have just to put the pointlimit at 300 for example :)

Or make a new mode with a number of maps (to replace the pointlimit) to play , and when we have play the numbers of maps , the server put on the screen the result of the race on the screen !

survival mode it's an interesting idea too and easy to understand .

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 12 Feb 2009 23:51

it seems complicated to explain
when the race happens, you don't know what are the possible consequences. So, if people can only learn what happened at the end of the race, they are not watching the race, but the score table. More skilled spectator make the computation in their heads to think of the possible outcome in 1, 2, 3 rounds (this is where I stop ^_^) or even more. But it is not really cool to have to do this to watch a match.

This is also why I prefer modes like leader or survival. You just look at the leader or the last car, the suspens and result are there.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by DeathDriver » 13 Feb 2009 02:46

Again it's hard for me to answer here. Just some points, which are very important in my opinion.

What I dislike with Leader mode
The most important thing here is that just the first place is awarded, which is more than bad in my opinion. At the moment every player get points. Players are fighting for the 3rd place sometimes to receive at least 1 point more. If you just award the first place I would just retire if I crash to hard because it's nearly not possible that all 3 others crash as well - at least its hardly probable.
Tbh I dislike the Leader mode at all... maybe mostly because of this "only win counts always" criteria.

Just 1 map problem
Absolutely no-go! You can never do races on just one map. Players have different maps they like, you will never encourage a fair competition on just one map, because the slight difference between the top players is often (not every time) decided by the fact if they like the map or not.
A second reason for taking 3 maps at least (I like the current 5-map-system btw) is the length of the race. 1 map races will be much to short.
A third reason against it are the bored players only to train 1 map for one race. This is not CS, TM is based on map building - USE THAT! (I remember somebody pointing this out just a few posts before)

Fighting until the end
Florent - you always try to make it as best for the spectators as possible. That's not always popular, but still great in the most cases. BUT: Beside that you want to fight for all places until the end. The winner reaches the winner status, he wants to raise his hands and jump up to enjoy this moment. The audience was screaming for the last round and the fans of the winner want to celebrate. They make big noises and want to enjoy this moment as well. But what happens? 3 Players still need to continue.... That really SUX (I am sorry). Even - or even more if the 2nd is ready: Now 2 players need to wait with their celebration - 2 audiences of fans need to wait...
Really you have this in no other eSports. I know it's the same in F1 and stuff, but that's different. That's not eSport and not Trackmania. Because Trackmania is Trackmania - nothing else. (that's also why I dislike the analogys)
You really destroy the atmosphere of the winner celebration - the atmosphere of the Grand Final. In the end - after 10 min - everybody finished, but nobody has the energy to celebrate. Maybe they will celebrate, but not as much as they would do if the race is finished in first place.
I really like you to think about this point. Just remove it. After the 1st finished - all is finished. Count points - count the one reaches "finalist" earlier or with more points - count whatever the mode stands for. But please: Don't let me wait in my first Live ESWC Grand Final, as I want to visit it in 2009, to celebrate the winner.


I will add more points that are interesting and worth to discuss, if I remember them again :)

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by w1lla » 13 Feb 2009 07:27

Florent wrote: W1lla, because we are not perfect maybe?
Will not flame you but reading almost 2 hours of one topic doesnt it come forward to you or anybody from Nadeo that this gamemode "Cup" should be replaced as Survival mode...

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