Cup Mode logics

Category dedicated to the ESWC: news, tracks selection...

Moderators: ESWC-Sylvain, TM-Patrol

Post Reply
schnitzer
pedestrian
pedestrian
Posts: 12
Joined: 27 Dec 2006 09:56
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by schnitzer » 10 Feb 2009 16:02

lol florent
for me it looks like u just want tm to be as good for spectators as it can.
This finalist thing is the strangest think i ever heard in connection to such a topic.
Where is the motivation for someone like frost to play a final and to train maps like hell to win something like EMS or ESWC.
Its kinda frustrating if u know that all this winning or loosing thing (and ofc getting the prizes etc.) depends on one run.
I think then u wont participate in those cups because of the fact that u dont want to sacrifice all that training time for winning one round at the end.
And if it doesnt work all uve done for it will be away .

but back to the first point:
For example , if this thing will stay like it is , and all huge tournaments will be in this mode, i will just enter the relays for seeing this ONE round.
and if u want to make tm as much exciting for the specs as it can u will just pwn ur self, because where is the point of getting the players on the relays just for one round?

So far
Schnitzer

--->
The logic of this mode is just to make the races more random.
The logic of the sport is that the winner must be the best.

connect
pedestrian
pedestrian
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 15:05
Owned TM-games: TMNF

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by connect » 10 Feb 2009 16:18

schnitzer wrote:lol florent
for me it looks like u just want tm to be as good for spectators as it can.
This finalist thing is the strangest think i ever heard in connection to such a topic.
Where is the motivation for someone like frost to play a final and to train maps like hell to win something like EMS or ESWC.
Its kinda frustrating if u know that all this winning or loosing thing (and ofc getting the prizes etc.) depends on one run.
I think then u wont participate in those cups because of the fact that u dont want to sacrifice all that training time for winning one round at the end.
And if it doesnt work all uve done for it will be away .

but back to the first point:
For example , if this thing will stay like it is , and all huge tournaments will be in this mode, i will just enter the relays for seeing this ONE round.
and if u want to make tm as much exciting for the specs as it can u will just pwn ur self, because where is the point of getting the players on the relays just for one round?

So far
Schnitzer

--->
The logic of this mode is just to make the races more random.
The logic of the sport is that the winner must be the best.

Read the point 4. in the first post. There would be no big cups and tournas like ESWC if there were no spectators. So prefering spectators over players is usual and it's done in every game - sport. And if you think there will be no players due to the cup mode or something, you're wrong. There are many hungry trackmaniacs trying to reach the top without whining about rules or cupmodes like the ones in the top do right now.

How come you say people would come to the relay for 1 last round. The system is closely same as rounds , except the finalist thing. I remember watching cup mode on DH final, and I saw no one complaining and I saw the most epic spam of all time during the rounds, especially in the end.

And saying it's unfair for players is also stupid as I stated my views on this in previous post. The rules all same for all the players they're all on the same line. - it ain't random who wins. The best will win anyway. It ain't a luckmode.

HM@love it
cyclist
cyclist
Posts: 36
Joined: 26 Dec 2006 12:20
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by HM@love it » 10 Feb 2009 16:19

In my opinion the cupmode is really interessting to spectate, at least if you don't know how the mode works.
As i watched the DreamHack final i didn't know a lot about this new mode and in the beginning i thought "hahaha pwnd frost" but afterwards i noticed what that new mode is like and it was quite unfair in my view.

Sure the cup-mode makes matches more interessting for people who doesn't know a lot about our cute game (thx florent btw) and maybe the specators who will be live at paris at grandfinal will like the game (i hope so, lol), but what happens if such a thing like the DreamHack final or rapt's eswc quali final?

I believe the spectators will notice pretty fast what was going on stage or even earlier in the tournement, what they will think in this case?
Probably they would say something like "Oh, this game is quite unfair and this mode is crazy, i will spectate counter-strike (CS sucks btw:D ) the next time, because its more simple to understand and the winner usually win deserved in this game".

So in my opinion the cup-mode could make TM to a bigger spectacle but on the other hand it could even cause the reserve and nobody wants to see TrackMania anymore at ESWC as example.

And tournements like ESWC is exactly that what our community needs for growing, not that TM isn't played anymore on those tournements because the organizations think it would be too unfair and they go back on those simple "i shoot you and i will win"-games.


Okay, i know, maybe some of you believe i did a senseless post know which is quite philosophical but i hope that at least some of you will get the point in my post :)

But in the end I'd like to add that with some improovements the cupmode could become to a real great thing.

I suggest:

As already suggested you could have a slower possibility to catching about, but in this case you would usually only delay our problem with the finalist-thing.
You could even let the points count which the finalist gets for places between 2-4, if he becomes first he won or at least give the finalist some points like from 1-4 or 6-4-3-0.

But the way the cupmode works atm the finalist thing should be removed, really ;)
On the other hand it looks quite "cool" with the finalist-thing, so i would keep it but it should be updated in the way, the finalist gets more chances -> the finalist is usually deserved the finalist!

i have some more things to add, but im quite busy atm, sorry :P

User avatar
nespokojny
happy cruiser
happy cruiser
Posts: 151
Joined: 29 May 2006 13:30
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by nespokojny » 10 Feb 2009 16:33

shura's idea is something i was thinking about too ... +1
but again it would be much more difficult for spectators to follow ... and that is one of the reasons why cup mode was invented .... -1

to cup mode: why don't you look at it as on two stage competition (eg. groupstage + playoff) ... in NHL the winner of regular season doesn't win Stanley Cup too ... he must prove it in playoffs where he has advantage of weaker opponent but he can also loose in first round ... just like in Cup mode the first finalist has more attempt to confirm his victory but he can ofc fail
(maybe just this "second phase" /or finalist phase/ in Cup mode is too quick and therefore inclined to randomness => possible solution: to become winner you have to win 2 rounds instead of just one)
-=The Resistance is Futile=-

Shura
pedestrian
pedestrian
Posts: 6
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 03:22
Owned TM-games: TMNF

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Shura » 10 Feb 2009 16:52

but again it would be much more difficult for spectators to follow ... and that is one of the reasons why cup mode was invented .... -1
I really think that if there is a good interface and clearly presented In Game, it's really easy to understand for spectator.

I really want to know what florent thinks about this mode cause the players make endless discussion and at the end they say exactly what i suggest ..

User avatar
Daddy_mfX
road tourist
road tourist
Posts: 96
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 13:11
Owned TM-games: TMn, TMuf
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Daddy_mfX » 10 Feb 2009 17:34

Shura wrote:Ok now it's my solution : A mix of all we saw in all posts :

- 5 maps are played
- 40 or 50 points before being a Finalist (on each map)
- Points : 10 6 4 3, F 6 4 3, F F 4 3, etc
- End of the map : 1st : +4 / 2nd : +3 / 3rd : +2 / 4th : +1 (like a championship)

I only see positive points :
- All maps are played
- Finalist thing = epic and 5 times !!
- Points counting F 6 4 3 thing : obvious cause it's only 40/50 points very few and fast reached.
- Rewards consistance (2 times 2nd = 1 time 1st and 1 time 3rd)
- Reward Risks taking (finalist thing)
- ALL the runs will be important (mode cup it's actually 80% of zzZZzzz time when the "stressing" part comes
- Longer matches : 40mn-1h
- Epic matches (+4 +3 etc) it's really close
best idea, so far :)

Frostbeule
happy cruiser
happy cruiser
Posts: 173
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 23:17
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 10 Feb 2009 17:44

HM@love it wrote:In my opinion the cupmode is really interessting to spectate, at least if you don't know how the mode works.
As i watched the DreamHack final i didn't know a lot about this new mode and in the beginning i thought "hahaha pwnd frost" but afterwards i noticed what that new mode is like and it was quite unfair in my view.

Sure the cup-mode makes matches more interessting for people who doesn't know a lot about our cute game (thx florent btw) and maybe the specators who will be live at paris at grandfinal will like the game (i hope so, lol), but what happens if such a thing like the DreamHack final or rapt's eswc quali final?

I believe the spectators will notice pretty fast what was going on stage or even earlier in the tournement, what they will think in this case?
Probably they would say something like "Oh, this game is quite unfair and this mode is crazy, i will spectate counter-strike (CS sucks btw:D ) the next time, because its more simple to understand and the winner usually win deserved in this game".

So in my opinion the cup-mode could make TM to a bigger spectacle but on the other hand it could even cause the reserve and nobody wants to see TrackMania anymore at ESWC as example.

And tournements like ESWC is exactly that what our community needs for growing, not that TM isn't played anymore on those tournements because the organizations think it would be too unfair and they go back on those simple "i shoot you and i will win"-games.


Okay, i know, maybe some of you believe i did a senseless post know which is quite philosophical but i hope that at least some of you will get the point in my post :)

But in the end I'd like to add that with some improovements the cupmode could become to a real great thing.

I suggest:

As already suggested you could have a slower possibility to catching about, but in this case you would usually only delay our problem with the finalist-thing.
You could even let the points count which the finalist gets for places between 2-4, if he becomes first he won or at least give the finalist some points like from 1-4 or 6-4-3-0.

But the way the cupmode works atm the finalist thing should be removed, really ;)
On the other hand it looks quite "cool" with the finalist-thing, so i would keep it but it should be updated in the way, the finalist gets more chances -> the finalist is usually deserved the finalist!

i have some more things to add, but im quite busy atm, sorry :P
I agree with everything.

Another thing: I actually think it's more exciting to watch a close rounds final than a close cup mode final. I mean with rounds there is just so many different outcomes that can occur, whilst in cup it's just the same thing all the time. Example: "OMG lign just crashed, now frost has to win over xeno so lign will win" or "omg tannis is leading over moriah half way through the final, if tannis want to go on to the grand final he must win this race, but the same thing is true for moriah, but not if legend finish 3rd!!". It's fascinating. And I really do think a normal audience appriciate this aswell, with good commentators.
Last edited by Frostbeule on 10 Feb 2009 17:48, edited 1 time in total.

tRkr
highway camper
highway camper
Posts: 2
Joined: 07 Sep 2006 13:34
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by tRkr » 10 Feb 2009 17:44

Agree with Shura.

Chapo
wheelbarrow operator
wheelbarrow operator
Posts: 17
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 19:06
Owned TM-games: TMU TMO TMS TMN

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Chapo » 10 Feb 2009 18:26

HM@love it wrote:I believe the spectators will notice pretty fast what was going on stage or even earlier in the tournement, what they will think in this case?
Probably they would say something like "Oh, this game is quite unfair and this mode is crazy, i will spectate counter-strike (CS sucks btw:D ) the next time, because its more simple to understand and the winner usually win deserved in this game".
Do you think that brasilian people who was praying for rain in F1 championship's last race thought it was fair ?
They wanted rain to come so that it would be possible for massa to win the championship because rain is completely based on luck, I myself wanted massa to win and wanted rain to come. Spectators don't care at all if it's fair or not, as long as their favourite player wins. Sure spectators of the guy who lost not fairly won't be happy but they wouldn't have been happy either if he had lost in a fair way.
Tbh I wanted rain on every F1 races so that it would be more interesting, spectators don't care about fairness. (and btw I think the cupmode will be fair once points will be reduced after the first guy becomes finalist).

Florent
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1594
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 14:07
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 10 Feb 2009 18:56

schnitzer wrote:Where is the motivation for someone like frost to play a final and to train maps like hell to win something like EMS or ESWC.
we agree completely

I don't want player to train maps like hell
hell is bad

the motivation should be to go to the competition, not to train for it. The pleasure should be to participate to the competition, not to spend 5 hours a day in the bedroom for one month trying to learn more than other the maps in order to win a competition where you add 25 best scores.

but I already explained it before a lot. Don't need to repeat myself more I think.

Frostbeule
happy cruiser
happy cruiser
Posts: 173
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 23:17
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 10 Feb 2009 19:06

You can't stop people from training Florent. No matter what rule you insert, the one that trains the most will win. And the more you train, the greater chance of winning you will have. So no matter what you do, people will still train the same amount. Just look at CS - they play the same maps there for 10 years, but they still train a lot more than trackmania players does.
the motivation should be to go to the competition, not to train for it.
The motivation always goes to the competition, that's _why_ you are training so much in the first place.
Last edited by Frostbeule on 10 Feb 2009 19:10, edited 2 times in total.

Florent
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1594
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 14:07
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 10 Feb 2009 19:08

there is a difference between training for one competition and training for a sport

wake up.

Frostbeule
happy cruiser
happy cruiser
Posts: 173
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 23:17
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 10 Feb 2009 19:11

what are you talking about?

Florent
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1594
Joined: 09 Aug 2005 14:07
Contact:

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 10 Feb 2009 19:25

if a leading Counter-Strike team does not train for a competition, what are their chance compared to a leading TM player that does not train for a competition

can a CS team say that they want to be sure to win if they train like hell the month before the competition?

Frostbeule
happy cruiser
happy cruiser
Posts: 173
Joined: 06 Oct 2007 23:17
Owned TM-games: TMN, TMU, TMUF, TMNF

Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 10 Feb 2009 19:42

Both got slim chances.

No they can't be sure that they will win.

I don't understand why you are against that people train before a competition. The level is higher, which means it's better for the audience as well - which you want right? The audience is what is important here. Why not let people train so they can give the audience their best.

Post Reply