Cup Mode logics

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Shura
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Shura » 10 Feb 2009 19:45

Florent wrote:can a CS team say that they want to be sure to win if they train like hell the month before the competition?
If they have the same skill they will win 80% of time if they nolifed.
The 20% can be compared to border bugs and finalist thing so it's the same ....

Thx to answer once again on something we don't care and not write only one word on my solution :)

You want the last word with frost and you don't care about anything else it's ok ..

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 10 Feb 2009 19:51

good joke

have you answer the solution I am writing in the very first post. Honestly, maybe you did, but many have not.

I think you should avoid this type of request... me answering your suggestion or arguments, when nearly none of mine were addressed.

you even think that it only need a good interface while we discussed this point system being difficult to follow. And there was an interface in Bercy by the way.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Shura » 10 Feb 2009 20:02

I don't understand what you're saying as usual so ^^

There are 2 points that my mode doesn't do (i refer to your 1st post in this topic, we are ok ?) :

- Less training : 2 solutions : minimaps or LOLmaps ? ^^
- The first player win = Competition is finished
I discuss a little with duke and he said me that too ..
At the end of the 5th map when the first finalist who validate with a 1st place : We stop the game and the remaining points (you remember +3+2+1 oh you don't read my solution ahh ok) will be dispatched on the actuel ranking on the map.
They will be no more run in the match and everybody is happy ^^

I just want you to say if my mode is really FAIR or not ?
The interface thing is really other thing and it's not the subject.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by DeathDriver » 11 Feb 2009 09:43

To point out the best solution in this topic so far:
Shura wrote:Ok now it's my solution : A mix of all we saw in all posts :

- 5 maps are played
- 40 or 50 points before being a Finalist (on each map)
- Points : 10 6 4 3, F 6 4 3, F F 4 3, etc
- End of the map : 1st : +4 / 2nd : +3 / 3rd : +2 / 4th : +1 (like a championship)

I only see positive points :
- All maps are played
- Finalist thing = epic and 5 times !!
- Points counting F 6 4 3 thing : obvious cause it's only 40/50 points very few and fast reached.
- Rewards consistance (2 times 2nd = 1 time 1st and 1 time 3rd)
- Reward Risks taking (finalist thing)
- ALL the runs will be important (mode cup it's actually 80% of zzZZzzz time when the "stressing" part comes
- Longer matchs : 40mn-1h
- Epic matches (+4 +3 etc) it's really close !!

Just one thing that only nadeo should answer :
It's +4 +3 +2 +1 or +5 +3 +2 +1 <= tougher than it seems to be ^^
Or a 3rd solution more "tricky" : +1 to the first finalist, it'll be : 5 3 2 1 or 4 4 2 1 or 4 3 3 1 or 4 3 2 2

With that, i think the best will win and you keep the finalist thing to make the crowd craaaaazy ^^

ps: Draws at the end of the match : Gold/Silver/Bronze Medals system.
I explain it fast : 2G/1S/2B is better than 2G/0S/3B.
I do not want to do a monster post here. I also do not want to give you my opinion as there were to much opinions here. Just 2 things to add:

1. Please start respecting Florent as the game developer, without him you wont be here discussing, so stop flaming...
2. Me as a League Organiser and ESL TMNF Head is following this discussion very intense to find out the best mode for our competitions.

Atze-Peng
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Atze-Peng » 11 Feb 2009 10:03

Well, I've only read the first 2 pages and want to say smoething, because I can't finish reading it yet and propably will forget to write down the things I think about it, if I do it later.

First of all: The one wins, who is the best. Point. Nothing to discuss here. If he is the best and can beat the others with the same premises as the others, he just deserves it. Thats what sport is about. Everyone have the same premises and the best wins. When you now try to make it harder for the best, it just makes you ridiculous. It's the same like you would've given all the drivers behind Lance Armstrong EPO (they propably have taken it anyway, but we assume now, they didn't), that they have bigger chances to keep up with him.
If you really think so, you should cancel the TM for the next ESWC immediately, because that would bring the whole TM scene in a bad light.


Now to the topic itself. For me the mode we have at the moment is the best for sure. Think about FET (in TMU and this month the TMN-FET starts). It never were really close on those roundmaps. Often the first were many seconds infront of the second and this would make the gap alot higher between the best and the competitors. In the "Round-by-Round"-Mode they competitors have the same chances each round to get the first.

Also I think more important is the diversity for spectators and not very very close runs. You did the first step with the dirt parts (looks fine for spectators, while I really dislike them) and the other new Pparts. For me the logical next step would be to use TMU instead of TMN, but I'm sure I know why you and Nadeo doesn't want to, so we have to think about some other solutions.


The question now is, how to make races closer/more interesting for spectators?

1. Take TMU :P

2. Ensure that players will train less (=more crashes). For example you could invite them 2 days before the matchday and give them a PC and the tracks.

3. Use a different group system. I've actually liked the GC6 System. More players in the final surely would be more fun to spectate.

I can't think of more atm, but If I have some ideas, I'll give them 2 you.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by DeathDriver » 11 Feb 2009 10:45

Sorry Atze...
You start a discussion not belongs to this thread with your 1st point and I want to smash it down in first place as you whole post is totally senseless. Your suggestions will not bring a fair competition. You know that, so please stop posting those strange things like "give everybody a pc and 7 maps 10min before the race and let 20 players play on 7 maps with 7 different environments". This way definitely NOT the best will win...

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Florent » 11 Feb 2009 10:52

DeathDriver wrote:To point out the best solution in this topic so far:
Shura wrote:Ok now it's my solution : A mix of all we saw in all posts :

- 5 maps are played
- 40 or 50 points before being a Finalist (on each map)
- Points : 10 6 4 3, F 6 4 3, F F 4 3, etc
- End of the map : 1st : +4 / 2nd : +3 / 3rd : +2 / 4th : +1 (like a championship)

I only see positive points :
- All maps are played
- Finalist thing = epic and 5 times !!
- Points counting F 6 4 3 thing : obvious cause it's only 40/50 points very few and fast reached.
- Rewards consistance (2 times 2nd = 1 time 1st and 1 time 3rd)
- Reward Risks taking (finalist thing)
- ALL the runs will be important (mode cup it's actually 80% of zzZZzzz time when the "stressing" part comes
- Longer matchs : 40mn-1h
- Epic matches (+4 +3 etc) it's really close !!

Just one thing that only nadeo should answer :
It's +4 +3 +2 +1 or +5 +3 +2 +1 <= tougher than it seems to be ^^
Or a 3rd solution more "tricky" : +1 to the first finalist, it'll be : 5 3 2 1 or 4 4 2 1 or 4 3 3 1 or 4 3 2 2

With that, i think the best will win and you keep the finalist thing to make the crowd craaaaazy ^^

ps: Draws at the end of the match : Gold/Silver/Bronze Medals system.
I explain it fast : 2G/1S/2B is better than 2G/0S/3B.
I do not want to do a monster post here. I also do not want to give you my opinion as there were to much opinions here. Just 2 things to add:

1. Please start respecting Florent as the game developer, without him you wont be here discussing, so stop flaming...
2. Me as a League Organiser and ESL TMNF Head is following this discussion very intense to find out the best mode for our competitions.
I am for the spirit of this mode in a way. This is why I suggested the mode where players need to win 3 to 5 maps to secure the victory (depending on the time it takes for one) One final per map, for me, is better than a final only at the end. However, I still am more for a victory process than a championship between the maps. The reason why the competition went from 2 to 4 players is the same why I think that only the 1st player can win a point on a map.

I like discuss this, but I want to insist on the fact that the mode I suggested on the first page is closer to this than anything else. So I think the logics can win, as long as we help the discussion to progress, a little like DD asks (thanks to him)

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Atze-Peng » 11 Feb 2009 10:56

DeathDriver wrote:Sorry Atze...
You start a discussion not belongs to this thread with your 1st point and I want to smash it down in first place as you whole post is totally senseless. Your suggestions will not bring a fair competition. You know that, so please stop posting those strange things like "give everybody a pc and 7 maps 10min before the race and let 20 players play on 7 maps with 7 different environments". This way definitely NOT the best will win...


Instead of arguing in a rage you should read stuff closely and you would have come to the solution, that I've said I only have read the first 2 pages and that I posted 3 I posted 3 DIFFERENT suggestions, which don't necessarily have to do with each other.

Also I didnt mean 20 Players in Final ESWC, but for example an 8 players group would be really fine for me as an spectator.

Still I think 5 or 7 maps doesnt make much of a different in the final (to discuss the TMU topic here, but as the smiley would've said to everyone beeing able to use their brain that I was kidding about it, while its still my opinion)

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 11 Feb 2009 11:35

I must say that thinking about it, Shura's idea is not that bad, and it's better than Florent's because it is not all decided in the end of the match, which I don't think is fair. With Shura's idea, every map counts, and even the leader can comeback, if the others win against him in the first 2 maps for example. It makes more sense.

Now I am a bit disappointed that more people hasn't gone against Florent's vision of not having a professional scene with trained players. I mean I'm sure most of us agree that the e-sport dream is to be able to have the game as your job and maybe have a salary - this is not what Florent wants.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by nespokojny » 11 Feb 2009 12:14

@Atze-Peng: in some auto competitions (WTCC i think), the winner of qualification (or the winner of previous race, it doesn't matter) has to carry additional weight in his car .. is that ridiculous, too??


@frost: shura's idea is very similar to florent's leader mode as he wrote already, only complicated ... so now when we left cup mode unsolved let's go discuss alternatives .. for example i can't find any major issues on The leader mode that Florent presented ... do you?
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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by sis » 11 Feb 2009 12:25

Training is a part of the game. If you want to be perfect in Trackmania as developer you should know it takes training and patients and more training.

I would not agree on playing "pure luck" style on random maps. It means the first who get a bit more lucky wins the match.

Although I would agree on shortening the time to train. 5 weeks, I recall... it was last ESWC, it's a bit to much. Even for people like me who still work each day I think 1 week maybe few days more are plenty enough to maintain with the top times. After that it would only become the one who invests 10 hours a day for 5 weeks ^^.

I've seen some good solution for the cup mode, as for reducing points when there is a finalist, reducing again with 2, etc = ++

And A finalist/winner on every track = +++ . As i'm sure I always have my favourite maps, wich I feel way more confident on and I train more because I like it, wich would give me an advantage to get a win on that map, on not only more points for the end win.

Just my feelings though :)

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 11 Feb 2009 13:10

nespokojny wrote:@Atze-Peng: in some auto competitions (WTCC i think), the winner of qualification (or the winner of previous race, it doesn't matter) has to carry additional weight in his car .. is that ridiculous, too??
I've come to realize that apparently people don't care about fairness in a sport (I seem to be the exception here), but I just want to say that you don't do that in every sport. In some, it's a bit more fair than that. Maybe they do that in WTCC because their audience is failing them so they get desperate, but this is not the case with Trackmania, as it is just growing bigger and bigger.
nespokojny wrote:@frost: shura's idea is very similar to florent's leader mode as he wrote already, only complicated ... so now when we left cup mode unsolved let's go discuss alternatives .. for example i can't find any major issues on The leader mode that Florent presented ... do you?
Shura's idea is better because it's not just about winning. With Florent's idea, you must be 1st to get points, with Shura's idea, consistency is also rewarded.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by nespokojny » 11 Feb 2009 13:15

Frostbeule wrote:Shura's idea is better because it's not just about winning. With Florent's idea, you must be 1st to get points, with Shura's idea, consistency is also rewarded.
if you have to win eg. 3 maps ... isn't it consistent enough?

Frostbeule wrote:I've come to realize that apparently people don't care about fairness in a sport (I seem to be the exception here), but I just want to say that you don't do that in every sport. In some, it's a bit more fair than that. Maybe they do that in WTCC because their audience is failing them so they get desperate, but this is not the case with Trackmania, as it is just growing bigger and bigger.
I just wanted to pinpoint that this effort here is not one big conspiracy against you (and whole fairness in the world ^^) ... unless you take part in wtcc too :D
-=The Resistance is Futile=-

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Atze-Peng » 11 Feb 2009 13:25

nespokojny wrote:@Atze-Peng: in some auto competitions (WTCC i think), the winner of qualification (or the winner of previous race, it doesn't matter) has to carry additional weight in his car .. is that ridiculous, too??
Without a doubt.

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Re: Cup Mode logics

Post by Frostbeule » 11 Feb 2009 13:31

nespokojny wrote:
Frostbeule wrote:Shura's idea is better because it's not just about winning. With Florent's idea, you must be 1st to get points, with Shura's idea, consistency is also rewarded.
if you have to win eg. 3 maps ... isn't it consistent enough?
Well good question. One thing though, is that the matches can be reaally long with Florent's mode. His idea is that one must win 3 maps, but if all 4 players win 2 maps each, that's 8 maps. Then 9 maps for the winner, then 10 maps for the 2nd place, and finally 11 maps for settling the 3rd place. With Shura's idea, it's over when the maps are over.

nespokojny wrote:
Frostbeule wrote:I've come to realize that apparently people don't care about fairness in a sport (I seem to be the exception here), but I just want to say that you don't do that in every sport. In some, it's a bit more fair than that. Maybe they do that in WTCC because their audience is failing them so they get desperate, but this is not the case with Trackmania, as it is just growing bigger and bigger.
I just wanted to pinpoint that this effort here is not one big conspiracy against you (and whole fairness in the world ^^) ... unless you take part in wtcc too :D
The whole point of Finalist mode or Leader mode or Shura's mode is to take down the top players. To give the less good players a chance at winning as well. It got nothing to do with fairness. It's the same in WTCC. Now the problem is, that what is a top player? A top player can also be you, if you meet less good players than yourself.

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