TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Come in to speak about the competitions different organised by Nadeo and the community.

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Lolomax
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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Lolomax » 18 Nov 2008 19:44

Chapo wrote:and spectators want to see tight matches not just a guy owning every one else.
Once again, did you read what I wrote?
lolomax wrote:Of course, spectators would certainly be interested in the whole competition, but for the player you are, wouldn't it be bad to know you'll probably lose because of luck?


Chapo wrote:I don't think it would be interesting for the guy who wins eswc without any good opponent.
You're taking the extreme case there. It wouldn't be the case on any of the TMU environments, as you seem to think.


Chapo wrote:What I mean is that tmn is a game which is appreciated by both the public and the players, why change it to tmu ?
Maybe because TMU is better than TMN (now stop saying TMN is better than TMU, it contains less things so TMU is better (or at least as good, if you do think everything TMU has more than TMN is rubbish), and also appreciated even if not famous.


Chapo wrote:tmnf is not 1/7 of tmuf, it's one single game.
Yes it is 1/7 of TMU !!!! It's also another different game, but it still is a small part of TMU. Do not expect explanations about it, the reasons have already been mentioned in this thread.


Chapo wrote:They will see one guy owning an environment, another one owning the next
"It wouldn't be the case on any of the TMU environments." Definitely.



Jamie wrote:I just would really like to see some United action .. that of what i have voted for
Same here :) But I highly doubt it will ever happen.
I just would be happy if my favourite game became recognized, but I'm also really satisfied of TMU competitions as they are nowadays (I mean ET competitions). All in all, seeing TMU picked for WCG would be a great thing, but, actually, I can do without it.

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Frostbeule » 18 Nov 2008 20:26

yes maybe because TMU is more "for fun" whilst TMN is more serious. this is just a theory, please don't hit me!!

and i'd say TMN is more of a single game than it is 1/7 part of TMU. I play TMN with a TMU-key, so I have ALL the features of TMU, but i don't have to have the other environments because i just don't want them, so thumbs up to nadeo for making that possible. and because you can do that, it just confirms that TMN is a game on its own. so basically: for TMU players, TMN is just 1/7 part of TMU. for TMN players, it's not. let's just respect that.

and lolomax: maybe you should try to be a bit clearer with what you write instead of writing that maybe you're "exaggerating" all the time. it's just a lame flame-shield.

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Chapo » 18 Nov 2008 20:53

lolomax wrote:Of course, spectators would certainly be interested in the whole competition, but for the player you are, wouldn't it be bad to know you'll probably lose because of luck?
Well if someone wins over another one I don't see where is luck, it just means that this day he was better. Let's do 10 football matches in a row with the same 2 opponents (which are approximatively the same level) and you will have many different scores.
Lolomax wrote:
Chapo wrote:I don't think it would be interesting for the guy who wins eswc without any good opponent.
You're taking the extreme case there. It wouldn't be the case on any of the TMU environments, as you seem to think.
Yes and no, every guy has his own good environments... I guess that in the end the score would be quite close but if someones gets 40 pts on 3 environments while the second gets 40 pts on 3 environments cause they own it well, there is not much competition and I am sure in this case only the stadium environment would choose the winner.
Lolomax wrote:
Chapo wrote:What I mean is that tmn is a game which is appreciated by both the public and the players, why change it to tmu ?
Maybe because TMU is better than TMN (now stop saying TMN is better than TMU, it contains less things so TMU is better (or at least as good, if you do think everything TMU has more than TMN is rubbish), and also appreciated even if not famous.
So you would try this with a maybe? that's much risk and I don't see how you can manage to say tmu is better than tmn. cs:source is supposed to be better than cs:1.6 because it's more realistic and it has been made after... well obviously the spectators don't really see it that way...
Lolomax wrote:
Chapo wrote:tmnf is not 1/7 of tmuf, it's one single game.
Yes it is 1/7 of TMU !!!! It's also another different game, but it still is a small part of TMU. Do not expect explanations about it, the reasons have already been mentioned in this thread.
Well stadium is 1/7 of the environments of tmu... Tmn is a whole game that you can buy in shop.
And I don't see the reasons you mention. + if you really think it's that bad , why do you keep playing on tmu as it's part of the game ?
Lolomax wrote:
Chapo wrote:They will see one guy owning an environment, another one owning the next
"It wouldn't be the case on any of the TMU environments." Definitely.
Oh sry, my apology, they will see 2 or 3 guys fighting for the first place and all the others behind, while on tmnf you only have 15-20 guys who can finish first, sure in that case I completely see tmu is way better ...

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Lolomax » 18 Nov 2008 22:15

Frostbeule wrote:yes maybe because TMU is more "for fun" whilst TMN is more serious. this is just a theory, please don't hit me!!
Yes, this is probably the case. I'm not disputing the fact TMN was developed for ESWC, and that TMU wasn't. I'm just telling you it wouldn't be that "stupid" (that is what you said) to pick TMU.

Frostbeule wrote:maybe you should try to be a bit clearer with what you write instead of writing that maybe you're "exaggerating" all the time. it's just a lame flame-shield.
I said it once, and then repeated it because you told me I was "being too pessimistic".


Chapo wrote:every guy has his own good environments
Chapo wrote:They will see one guy owning an environment, another one owning the next
Of course, but a good TMU player must be good on every on them. The difference between his level on his "strong" environments and his "weak" environments is (in most of the cases) slight (first quotation), what makes the competition interesting, as it would be close on every environments (second quotation).


Chapo wrote:I don't see where is luck, it just means that this day he was better.
Where is luck? If everyone has the same level, the final result depends on luck (and other factors), instead of pure driving. You say that if someone wins, it means "this day he was better". I think it just means he was luckier, in the case in which everyone has the same level.

As Frostbeule said, we're not sharing the same point of view about it, and I guess I will never convince you :lol:


Chapo wrote:cs:source is supposed to be better than cs:1.6 because it's more realistic and it has been made after... well obviously the spectators don't really see it that way...
I'm sorry, we don't have the same definition of a good game ;) If for you, a good game is a game in which there are a lot of players and spectators, I think you are wrong.
Anyway, I can't discuss about Counter Strike, as I don't really know it.


Chapo wrote:Well stadium is 1/7 of the environments of tmu
What basically makes up Trackmania is the diversity of the environments. This is something predominant in Trackmania. The first players who played Trackmania liked it because it was something new: 3 different fun driving styles.
I agree there are other things than the environments in Trackmania, but they are the most important part of it.
Therefore, I think TMN is 1/7th of TMU.

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Chapo » 18 Nov 2008 22:49

Great to see that you actually answer to half (and even less of what I am saying). I can assume you agree about all the other things I said and you didn't discussed.

I think you didn't understand what I am trying to say, I am trying to make you understand why tmnf has to be chosen for esport competitions instead of tmuf. I am sure you find it nice to see tmuf competitions and I sure would myself too...
But here I am really speaking about the 'unknown' guy, spectator who doesn't know much about the game.
I am sure you think tmuf is better than tmnf and I think tmnf is better than tmuf, as I would prefer tmnf over dota or any game.
But what want eswc or wcg ? games that spectators want to pay to see played... And what spectators want are tight matches.
There sure would be tight matches on tmuf but way less than on tmnf...

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by jamie_macdonald » 19 Nov 2008 00:49

Chapo wrote:Great to see that you actually answer to half (and even less of what I am saying). I can assume you agree about all the other things I said and you didn't discussed.

I think you didn't understand what I am trying to say, I am trying to make you understand why tmnf has to be chosen for esport competitions instead of tmuf. I am sure you find it nice to see tmuf competitions and I sure would myself too...
But here I am really speaking about the 'unknown' guy, spectator who doesn't know much about the game.
I am sure you think tmuf is better than tmnf and I think tmnf is better than tmuf, as I would prefer tmnf over dota or any game.
But what want eswc or wcg ? games that spectators want to pay to see played... And what spectators want are tight matches.
There sure would be tight matches on tmuf but way less than on tmnf...
I dont think lolo or myself will ever agree with that opinion .. and im pretty sure we both fully understood what you said...

We disagree with you fullstop. repeating yourself will not change that .. back ontopic then??

the topic being TMU of course :roflol:

I have recently become TMN league admin for ET ... but here in this thread i voted and discuss TMU .. TMN has nothing to do with this thread and you should stop trying to force it in here beacuse its your preference ok ?

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by tma » 19 Nov 2008 10:09

jamie_macdonald wrote:I have recently become TMN league admin for ET ... but here in this thread i voted and discuss TMU .. TMN has nothing to do with this thread and you should stop trying to force it in here beacuse its your preference ok ?
Heh, ET's unceremonious discharge and subsequent replace- of pretty much all current TMN-admins, with a gaggle of self-professed stadium-haters no less, didn't go fully unnoticed.... 'nuff said.

Why wouldn't TMN (the modern term usually meaning TMNF aka Stadium) be relevant in this thread? All gameplay/skill-discussion aside, given the amount of confusion even within the community both pre and post-launch, don't you find it extremely plausible that their intention is "stadium only" even if they picked the commercial title (TMUF) for their vote? You can't dispute the fact that stadium has the largest adoption by a large margin, and that when most non-initiates talk about Trackmania, what they're thinking about is, yep, Stadium.

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by jamie_macdonald » 19 Nov 2008 13:59

Well your stuck up your own opinion thats for sure ...

I dont hate stadium i love ALL of tm ... i love stadium enough to accept being league admin and 90% of my own maps are also on stadium ...

The reason i dont like to see all the stadium only talk here is be cause i voted for TMU here in this thread ...

All that its ended up though is alot of Nations only players hijacking this thread ... Dissapointing and Selfish imho

I will support stadium in ET leagues and help in any way i can there ,, just as here in a TMU vote i will venamently stick up for exactly that i have voted for ... wich is TMU 7 environments not just one..

You can pre-judge presume what you like .. but if you dont read what i type and presume i h8 a part of a game i love .. your to thickle and will allways presume what you like anyway right? as you have allready shown you cant think out of your on preferential box ... I myself however can .. so you are speaking for yourself

The only thing i am hating here is selfish ignorance and inconsideration of all the other people who drive something other than the one environment you have hijacked this thread with!!

The only thing you are possibly doing here by arguing your insular view is almost making sure that neither of the games will be included as this is rather silly and if i was WCG readign this i'd probably think the community was so silly its not worth including either of the branches. All i did was stick up for the very thing i voted for .. nothing else

So while i vote for TMU and try to discuss it in its entirety you can go start a new thread of TMD (divided) as this is obviously how you see it. I however like us all United (yes that includes drivers of all 7 enviro's)

Try reading the thread title and lets get back to that discussion eh?

Its not like we will even probably influence what WCG use as there track playlist by the silly argument is it now ^^

PS. Re the ET TMN admin team .. i think you need to look at the list again ... Frostbeule, Bergie are Stadium haters are they? i think not .. and neither am i ^^

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Chapo » 19 Nov 2008 14:58

Well you presume here we do it because we are selfish right?

I guess I will have to tell it again and again, I am just giving you facts why tmnf should be chosen for esport !!!
Can't you understand that I do it because I think it is true? I will never play in eswc or wcg (nor will tma) because we are not good enough. So you should understand that we say this because we believe tmnf is more suitable for esport than tmuf...

And about frostbeule and bergie, ET admins, sure they are not stadium haters because they are there on irc,talking with us and taking part of tmnf tournaments, I have not seen you or any other ET admin taking part in these tournaments so I really don't see why you want to be head admin for these ... And I have not seen any of you guys (except for Frostbeule and bergie) on irc with us, a part of the tm community. I think you can understand that we assume you don't like this part of the community...
I myself don't really like many of the different environments but I still am here discussing with you and I already took part in tmuf tournaments...

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by jamie_macdonald » 19 Nov 2008 16:34

Chapo wrote:Well you presume here we do it because we are selfish right?

I guess I will have to tell it again and again, I am just giving you facts why tmnf should be chosen for esport !!!
Can't you understand that I do it because I think it is true? I will never play in eswc or wcg (nor will tma) because we are not good enough. So you should understand that we say this because we believe tmnf is more suitable for esport than tmuf...

And about frostbeule and bergie, ET admins, sure they are not stadium haters because they are there on irc,talking with us and taking part of tmnf tournaments, I have not seen you or any other ET admin taking part in these tournaments so I really don't see why you want to be head admin for these ... And I have not seen any of you guys (except for Frostbeule and bergie) on irc with us, a part of the tm community. I think you can understand that we assume you don't like this part of the community...
I myself don't really like many of the different environments but I still am here discussing with you and I already took part in tmuf tournaments...
Heard this all before allready ... bored ^^

You can assume what you like to but this does not mean its true .. predjudgment is for fools

as for irc its not a very good messenger and i allready have enough messenger and forums to keep an eye on thanks

Again it boils down to the fact that what you are doing you think everybody else should be too ... this is not the case m8

I like the way you also speak as the TMN community as those being on irc ... like others who play stadium are not part of the community ... no m8 there jsut not in your little "clique" thats all

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by tma » 19 Nov 2008 17:03

Chapo wrote:(nor will tma)
Ey! What's that supposed to mean! ;)
jamie_macdonald wrote:PS. Re the ET TMN admin team .. i think you need to look at the list again ... Frostbeule, Bergie are Stadium haters are they? i think not .. and neither am i ^^
So the word 'haters' may have been bit strong, I'll admit. Even so, check your history, as the _very_ thing I was remarking on was that both Bergie and Frost were initially let go, and the replacements were all TMU'ers - some of whom not exactly known as stadium-friendly (both environment and community-wise). Nobody expected raised eyebrows over that? But hey, it's your organisation. You can take it in whatever direction you want.

In any case I'm taking this thread too far off topic now.. Back on topic, TMUF is certainly what it says on the tin. I voted, and I guess we'll see. I really don't care either way, as Chapo's absolutely right about one thing :P

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by jamie_macdonald » 19 Nov 2008 18:26

yup tma . .lets push this through ... get the game in and let the admin of the championships worry as to what environment(s) they want to use..

This may even be stadium alone they decide .. im not against that ..i would jsut like to see some inclusion myself ... cant hurt to try ^^

I like the think we can all build a united future without exclusion of any including the nations community .. united we stand, divided we fall .. maybe a dodgy clich'e but an appropriate one indeed.

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by [POL]jakub » 19 Nov 2008 21:12

just for info.

although some of you may not know this, the polish trackmania scene is developing relatively fast as far as the offline tournaments are concerned.
on the eswc national finals 2008 ie we had prices worth about 5000 Euros only for trackmania (laptops, ps3s..., 2 trips to san jose, pocket money...), germany ie had none besides the trips.
this is only possible because we often play stadium on TMUF on lans.
the simple reason for that is, that the polish publisher of TMUF can sell it(he cant sell TMNF though).
if he can sell it, he will sponsor it. its just that simple.

furthermore we had other big companies sponsoring trackmania on lans in poland, but we nearly always play stadium on TMUF.

actually i see no big difference as far as the gameplay is concerned, so most of us agree with that (dont know if we would, if there were no prices).

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by Zooz » 20 Nov 2008 00:16

tma wrote:words
Just that the new TMN ET admins are not in your group of TMN buddies doesn't mean they're not in the TMN community. Even then, not the whole team has to be active in the TMN high-level competition community, as long as a few are in it to stay in touch it should be enough, right? The other chosen admins have other qualities. It's still better to have good league admins who aren't playing in the league at a high level than bad league admins who are. Also, noobs have to play the maps too (in fact, they're the majority) so they should be taken into account as well.

Also, it's the ET management's organisation, not Jamie's or mine.

And with that, let's end this derail... you can make a new thread for it, maybe on the ET forum.

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Re: TMUF on WCG 2009?! It's possible guys!

Post by RavenZero » 20 Nov 2008 01:40

TMU = 10% of the TM world
TMN = 90% of the TM world

Speaking about population, which one has more? And I'll still waiting to someone to give me some solid reason any other of the TM environment.

(Don't be a TM fan here, it's all about business. Not about fanboys.)

Face the facts, TMN worked since 2006 and I don't think they would like to screw that history because it would cost them a lot of money.

Also, I'm not playing TM anymore because I'm short with the time, but I still deal with event organizations and even handle my maniazone. Anyway my experience says:

Non stadium LAN (ESWC, WCG, XLParty etc) competition = FAILURE

Stadium has a successive past inside the e-Sport competitions (excluding ONLINE tournaments since they're NOT the real point here).

Otherwise we would see dignitas training hard for the other 6 envs... :P

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